The prophet is still alive. God still raises up bold voices to call us to renewal, repentence and rejoicing…
Ross King is one such voice…unassuming, humble, and wise beyond his years.
Ross is gifted of God.
We’re lucky to have him this month._MORE_TEXT_TAG_
First things first, let’s start off by allowing you to lovingly dote on your wife.
I don’t how much bandwidth you’ve got on this site, so I’ll keep this short. My wife is the most beautiful, wonderful, brilliant woman on the planet. She knows and understands Jesus in a mystical and absolutely inspirational way. She’s a shining, intimidating misfit. Her only flaw is that she married a doofus.
How long have you been traveling as a worship leader?
I started doing this when I was in college. I was terrible and unqualified at the time, but you have to remember that there weren’t a lot of people doing it then, so the standards were probably a good bit lower in terms of professionalism and priesthood. If you do the math, I guess it’s been almost 10 years. That means I’m getting a little too old to dress like a teenager.
Tell us about Community Church….how did that happen?
It’s a long and amazing story, but I’ll just give you the basics. I was 26 and about to get married. I had been an unsatisfied church-hopper for a while. Scot Stolz, who at the time was a youth pastor, had been a friend and colleague for several years (he was one of the first risk-takers that actually paid me to sing songs in front of his flock). We would get together once a month or so and have lunch and talk really honestly about what was missing from church-as-we-knew-it. We weren’t being snotty or superior. We just had an unshakeable feeling of displacement. I don’t know if that makes sense, but after a while he was quitting his youth ministry job and I was barely involved at any church at all, and we just had to do something to restore ourselves to some sense of spiritual community. So Scot and I and another kinsman (Troy Hellmann) and our families decided to start meeting together and exploring true, Biblical community, basically using Acts 2 as a framework. We’re still exploring, and it’s been the most fabulous, difficult, exhilarating experience of my life.
It’s hard to really explain where we are now. The church is still small, and in many ways, struggling, but it’s just a really wonderful thing to find people who are willing to follow you into failure, knowing that a “better country” awaits. That might be way too vague but, like I said, this is a really long story.
Talk a bit about the balance - ministering to a new group of students from week to week compared to ministering to the same people every Sunday?
It’s almost like comparing apples to oranges. The traveling worship leader is, in many ways, an entertainer. I know that statement is probably a little over-generalized and cynical-sounding for some people, but deep down we all know it’s true. If musical worship was just as purely spiritual and uncorrupted as say, fasting, then things would probably be a lot different. Worship is getting very “cool.” If fasting was as cool as worship, we’d have “Fasting Magazine” and there would be pictures of famous fasters on the cover.
Authentic, Jesus-following spirituality is weird and offensive to the world. Cool music ain’t. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t play good music at Christian gatherings. It just means that we have to be exceedingly careful how we handle the balance of priesthood and celebrity. I say all of that to make this point: when I lead worship at my church, I don’t have to consider which songs are popular and which songs will get people “on their feet.” I don’t have to guess what kind of things are going to work and not work, musically speaking. I don’t have to worry about talking too much or going over my allotted time or singing a song that has been over-done with this particular group. I don’t have to think about being too loud or not loud enough and I don’t have to try and sound like the latest Brit-pop band. All I have to do is think about what the Spirit of God is doing in my church, and then I try to lead my community accordingly. It’s beautiful and low-stress and it feels like home.
In addition, there are lots of songs that I do at my church that I don’t do much on the road. The reason for that is simple. There are certain songs that just take a while to “get.” Sometimes it can be pretty frustrating knowing that there are levels of intimacy and spirituality and honesty (between us and God, and between us and each other) that I will hardly ever breach when I’m traveling. When I’m at my church, if I reaIly believe in a song or an idea, I have the freedom of knowing that if that song or idea “fails” one week, we can keep plugging away at it until we really own it and understand it. Doesn’t it say something about our culture that we are quite often led in worship by people who don’t know us and who are singing the same songs with us that they’d sing anywhere else that they went? Am I the only one who is a little worried about what that may say about our level of depth and growth? When did dressing like Bono, riding around in a Suburban, and sleeping in hotels become synonymous with solid, Spirit-sensitive leadership? People need leadership and connection and shepherding. They need pastors, not rock stars. They need subtlety and thought-provocation, not posturing and posing.
Perhaps the worst example of worship-leading-gone-bad is the “worship tour.” Don’t get me started on that stuff. Yuck. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
Is that a hard shift to make? Do you personally have to adjust anything in your mind based on which stage your playing?
I have a pretty difficult time with it. In some ways it’s more difficult now than it’s ever been. I don’t know if that’s a good sign or not, but it’s definitely true. I think we worship leaders have been shoved into a corner by our own “cool-ness.” There’s nothing wrong with worship being popular, but it can make it difficult not to attempt to “serve two masters. The balancing act of trying to put on a good show and give God glory is very difficult, so we usually end up falling on one side or another.
I just try to relax and be myself anywhere that I’m leading, but I have definitely found it to be easier at home than it is on the road. That probably has more to do with my insecurity than anything else, but who knows?
A lot of younger worship leaders are a bit caught up in the whole “life on the road” thing. As one who has seen both sides, what do you think a lot of people misunderstand about local church ministry?
It’s hard to say what is being misunderstood about “local church ministry” as a whole, because I’ve only worked for one church. In my experience, working consistently with the same church community creates a very forgiving and healthy environment. I work with an exceptionally secure and self-aware pastoral team, and that makes all the difference. We’re an elder-led church with very few traditional elements. I don’t know how different it would be working in a traditional and/or congregation-led church. My pastors trust me and love me and go to bat for me, and I feel very safe and protected as a result. I’ve seen situations that aren’t like that.
But in my limited experience, whatever kind of pastoral and/or communal situation you’re in, working in the local church affords you the opportunity to make things a lot less performance-based. It makes the worship time a lot less pressured and distant. Biblical, communal intimacy becomes a real possibility. Presentation takes a backseat to shared experience. You can look out at the people who are singing with you and think stuff like: “I know that guy really means this, because we had coffee last week and I share life with him.” Moreover, he knows me and isn’t going to let me treat this time like just another gig.
Besides that, it’s just nice to be around people who don’t care at all about the Christian subculture. The people at my church value me for a whole lot more than what I bring to the table musically. They don’t know anything about booking and CD sales and image. And they are a lot less cynical and competitive and suspicious than I am, and that’s really wonderful. Musicians have a tendency to be a little self-pitying and over-dramatic. My people don’t buy it. They’re like, “hey, John’s wife is leaving him, so get over it.” Sometimes it’s good for my soul to sit across the table from a divorced recovering alcoholic who is so lonely that he can’t think straight. It kind of puts things in perspective. My complaints and quibbles seem a bit silly up against his quest to suffer well amidst actual, human trials. I don’t worry so much about merch sales and CCLI royalties anymore. Glory to God!
Again, it’s so different from being on the road that it’s hard to know how to answer a question like this. I don’t blame people for not wanting to work in the local church. I’ve had several friends who’ve been really abused and misunderstood in those environments. The Church has problems, to be sure. But they won’t get solved because a bunch of pseudo-celebrities sit around and complain about it. Believe me, I’ve tried.
One thing I’ve always admired about you has been your ability to focus people on the role of intellect in a life of faith. When people say that you write ‘thinking man’s music,’ does that make you smile or cringe?
Oh man, I love hearing that! I want to put comments like that in a bottle and rub them all over me like lotion. Thanks. It really does help to hear that my music portrays that kind of vibe.
Here’s the thing. I’m not good enough at this to make a difference with chord structures and melody. I really am just a mediocre musician. I do this because there are things inside of me that make me feel bloated and anxious, and I have to let those things out. Music has always been a way for me to say things that I would preach about if I was a preacher. It’s always been a way for me to express to lots-of-people-at-once what I would express to one-person-at-a-time over pancakes and coffee.
I’ll frame it another way. I meet young people all the time who want me to tell them how to get into the “traveling worship-leader business.” I have several leading, thought-provoking questions that I like to ask them. One of them is this: “what are you going to bring to the table that isn’t already being served?” In other words, are you just going to copy Crowder or Darrell Evans or Don Moen or Shane Barnard? Because if you are, why do it? Bring your own spirituality to this. Give us something new and exciting and specifically-you. God made you with care and caution and love. We want to see that, not some re-hashed version of your favorite artist. That said, I think I’m in this business because I don’t know a lot of people that are really trying to challenge and inspire and prick our intellect with Christian music. I’m not saying that there’s no one out there doing it. I’m just saying that it’s not overly common in my opinion. And I don’t think that every musician should be doing that. We all have our part to play in this. For as long as the Lord has me doing this, that’s probably going to be my part.
Over the past couple of years, you’ve had the privilege of producing projects by other people. What’s most joyous about being a producer?
Recording music can be grueling and stressful and, quite often, very disappointing. I’ve been in the studio, as an artist, more hours than I can count. I made so many mistakes and learned so much about myself and my music and just recording in general. The best part about producing other artists is that I get to help them avoid the traps and temptations that are native to the process. I’ve been where they are. I’ve been the artist that is so concerned and anxious about how their music is going to translate to tape. I try to put myself back in that place and put their mind at ease. It’s actually a very pastoral role that I consider to be one of the more important and effectual ministry areas of my life. Aside from that, it’s just fun to watch music really come to life through the studio process. I’m not the world’s best producer, but I feel like I have a good sense of how to make a song better. And that’s a lot of fun.
It seems that with the rise of “Texas Music” (in the country market,) there’s also been a massive focus on Texas based worship leaders. Why? Is Texas really that cool?
Cool? Not in the summer.
I’m not sure what the deal is, other than the fact that Texas is a really big place right in the heart of the Bible Belt. I have a lot of friends who do ministry in other states. Sometimes they say stuff like, “Texas is on the forefront of ministry and everyone else is five years behind.” I’m not even sure what that means, but it kind of gets on my nerves.
I think there have been several things that have happened in Texas that have caused, or at least contributed to, this whole “Texas worship” thing. Breakaway Ministries at A&M has had, over the last 8 years or so, a pretty interesting group of worship leaders: Chris Tomlin, Michael Armstrong, John Sherrill, Shane Barnard, The Smith Band, and me. And the Texas thing gets bigger and broader than that. Tomlin is at a church in Austin now. David Crowder is at UBC in Waco. David Parker runs a studio and leads worship out of D/FW. Steven Manuel is from Texas.
A lot of the fruit that has come from Texas had to do with the cross-pollination of many of those artists early on. Tomlin, Armstrong and I were in a worship band together in college (I played drums, believe it or not). Tomlin and Armstrong lived together during that time, in a house where Parker had once lived. Steven was later a part of the same band. We all wrote songs together and led worship together and hung out back then. It was a very shaping and growing time. Later on, I lived two apartments down from Shane Barnard and Shane Everett. Caleb Carruth went to A&M, and he and I have become very good friends.
I mean, think about all of the people that went to A&M and are now somehow connected to the music/worship thing: me, Tomlin, Armstrong, Shane and Shane, Caleb, Steven, Parker, Amy Nobles… it is a little weird.
Your last two projects, “To Make God Famous” and “All the Decorations Too” came out remarkably close together, yet they are two very unique projects. Yet it does seem to fall in line with your ministry which is both concerts and worship. Is it hard to mix the two?
I’m not sure at what level I do mix them. It’s weird, because I know of artists like Crowder and Shane and others who seem to have a sort of seamlessness between performance-ish songs and corporate worship songs. I admire them for being able to pull it off, because I can’t do that. It’s something I’ve never known how to do. When I’m writing, I’m always thinking about whether this is something that I want the Church to sing or whether it’s something I want people to hear. I know that sounds really over-simplified and ignorant, but it’s all I know. I’ve always struggled with the lines between performer and priest, so I just make them really huge and obvious.
I’m not crazy about the term “artist-worshiper” either. As a matter of fact, I’m almost a bit offended by it’s connotations, because I feel like it sort of means “performer-worshiper.” Maybe that’s something that I infer that isn’t really there, but I can’t escape the feeling that God is very serious about how we handle our platform. I look at 1 Corinthians 9 and James 3 and I just know that I can’t ignore those ideas. I’m not saying that “artist-worshiper” is somehow in opposition to those ideas. I’m just saying that I see a lot of performing and rock-star posturing going on, and it’s only getting worse.
As for the differences in the records, that has to do with my goals for the individual projects. This is wrapped up in much of what I’ve already said, but I just really want to use my “artist/singer-songwriter” platform to do heavily artistic and cerebral stuff that probably wouldn’t work quite as well in a “let’s all sing this song together” kind of format. And I want to use my “worship-leader/pastor” platform to do something much more inclusive and inviting and anonymous. Both platforms will hopefully lead people to Jesus and His Kingdom, but they take very different approaches, at least for me. I’m sure this represents something in me that is immature and close-minded, but I don’t know how else to do it. Somebody help me.
Are there some key things that you see the church at large ‘getting?’
Oh man. This is exciting. Where do I start? First let me say that answering this question makes me sound like a know-it-all. I’ll try to be careful. There’s lots of stuff that I’m not even close to “getting” yet, so this whole thing is being filtered through that lens. This is just a random list of good things that I see in the Church today. They’re in no particular order.
I think people are starting to really understand sovereignty. Despite all the nastiness that has come from fights over Calvinism, we really are starting to realize that the world doesn’t revolve around us and what we want. That’s exciting. I grew up thinking that God was like a nerdy teenager with zits on his face, and I was like the hottest girl in school. God would call me up and ask me out and I’d say, ‘let me check my calendar and get back to you.’ That’s not who God is, and even though there’s lots of tension surrounding the whole sovereignty issue, I think it’s good that we’re learning His true identity.
Second, though I’m not really a true post-modern-thinking advocate, I do think that the church is learning a lot through some of the experimental endeavors of the folks in that movement. The Church is really poor at true, honest, vulnerable community, but we’re learning. Sometimes we have to embrace some new methodology to really hone in on the right theology.
Third, I think we’re finding balance now between some of the extreme sides of Christianity. Evangelicals are starting to appreciate the mindset behind things like liturgy and lent. Catholics are starting to expose the idolatry inherent in some of their traditions. Conservatives are starting to lift their hands and dance a little. Liberals are starting to see the danger of unchecked relativism. Again, the Church has problems, but lots of good stuff is going on. When believers engage in healthy, honest dialogue over a Bible and a beverage, there’s almost always some good result.
I think there’s been a resurgence of missional thinking lately, and that’s excellent.
And I know that people are starting to have a sense of holy dissatisfaction and righteous displacement. In other words, we’re realizing that church-as-an-institution isn’t really working like it’s supposed to, and that’s making us open to different ideas and deeper study of the Word. We’ve been leaning on traditions for way too long, and they’re finally being exposed for what they are, just like with Jesus and the Pharisees.
Five albums that changed your life . . .
“Changed my life” is probably a little strong. I’m not even really a huge music fan, strangely enough. Five books that changed my life would be a lot easier. But you asked, so here’s a shot. I hope it’s ok if they’re not all Christian. In my experience, most Christian music isn’t all that life-changing. I’m going to avoid “greatest hits” albums, because it’s common etiquette to exclude them from such contests.
Marc Cohn - Burning the Daze
Robin Mark/Hosanna Integrity - Revival in Belfast
Rich Mullins - A Liturgy, A Legacy, and A Ragamuffin Band
The Rembrandts - Untitled
Hanson (yeah, you heard me) - Middle of Nowhere
Thank you, Ross. Thanks for taking some time to be with us. God’s best for you and yours, man.
www.rosskingmusic.com
This interview was conducted by Todd Wright.
